I still haven't dared to brave the dungeon finder for a random heroic on my own, but I'm slowly trying to wean myself from only running with guild groups. To be honest I kind of have to - unsurprisingly, the tanks have finished their heroic gearing before anyone else, and I'm pretty sure that even some of the tanking alts have overtaken me on gear progression by now... either way the number of guildies that are interested in joining a heroic group is going down each day, and being able to get a full guild run together is rapidly becoming a luxury. I don't see that as an entirely bad thing though, as I've said in the past that - unlike many other players - I do like pugs. I think at the moment the main thing that still scares me a little is that I haven't done all the heroic dungeons yet, and I'm terrified of having my "first time" with a bad group. Once I know what to expect I'm usually a lot more confident.
Nonetheless, I'm working on it. Initially I only ran with full guild groups; then we had some runs where we pugged one person. The players we got were all very good and we didn't have any problems with them. From there I dared to take it to runs where it was three guildies vs. two puggers. We only got one completely hopeless dps at one point, but after we kicked him it was smooth sailing again. And last night I finally braved the dungeon finder with only a single guildie of mine by my side, an elemental shaman.
We got Vortex Pinnacle, which I hadn't done on heroic before, so I was slightly nervous even though I had heard that it was definitely one of the easier heroics. Fortunately my shaman friend was an absolute star, assigning crowd control on trash and patiently explaining fight mechanics to me and the tank, who hadn't done the instance before either. The dps did their job admirably, using crowd control, interrupts and doing good damage.
The tank was kind of an interesting case. As I mentioned, he admitted that it was his first time in there, but he didn't say so up front. In fact, he charged into the first pull with no crowd control and I immediately broke into a cold sweat at the thought of what that kind of tanking was going to mean for the rest of the run. However, my shammy friend nagged him about marks, so he set some... and then didn't really follow them himself. Again he was asked about this, at which point he finally admitted that he didn't really know what he was doing, and could someone else please mark for him? No problem! I'm just glad that he fessed up.
On those pulls with the tol'vir in the anti-magic field he was advised to make a line-of-sight pull... and had apparently no idea what that meant, as he charged right in anyway. We lived through it, but I couldn't help but wonder whether the tank hadn't just outed himself as a Wrath baby, as anyone that learned the ropes before WOTLK would have known what doing a LOS pull meant. Still, aside from that our tank did very well, used his tools appropriately and generally came across as a genuinely nice fellow. We had a pretty smooth run in the end, with only two wipes on the second boss as some of us had to get used to dodging the tornadoes first. It makes me hopeful for my future pugs; I'll just have to remember to also keep an open mind and to encourage communication like my shaman friend did.
Now, normal pugs are something that I've been doing aplenty, mostly on my druid. Unfortunately they've largely been less fun than my heroics. There is less wiping, mind you, though people have become a bit more tolerant of it even in normals, but the attitudes are rarely pleasant.
Especially in the low-level instances, that is Blackrock Caverns and Throne of the Tides, you'll often run into people that behave as if they've freshly stepped out of a WOTLK heroic and haven't got a clue about what's changed this expansion. "Gogogo"-ing, pulling for the tank, you name it. This isn't helped by the fact that BRC in particular seems somewhat undertuned on normal mode so that you can completely ignore many boss mechanics, such as Corla's zealots and the crepuscular veil of Obsidius's adds.
As you go up in levels this gets a bit better and people will at least wait for the tank to pull, but crowd control is still something that nobody really bothers with. On some pulls it really doesn't matter; on others it means that the healer has to do overtime and then hope that the tank is willing to wait for mana before charging into the next group.
Boss mechanics, interestingly enough, are something I've had few problems with on normal. Occasionally someone will mess up because they didn't know what to do and didn't ask for an explanation either, but even if that leads to a wipe it's usually not a problem to do it right next time. Sometimes the one who messed up will rage-quit because clearly the rest of the group sucks and wiped him, but then you'll only have an even easier time with his replacment, so you still win. Today in Grim Batol I had a warrior who seemed to consider it hilarious to intentionally do the wrong thing on bosses (such as charging Drahga's elemental add to make it explode or running all over the place during Erudax' shadow gale) and we still made it through.
The thing that has really been bugging me in my normal runs however is the incredible loot greed. For example I was healing a normal Stonecore run where the party repeatedly commented favourably on how I had managed to heal through some very sticky situations when we got multiple trash groups at once - and then when Azil dropped her healing trinket, the mage took it and left. /sigh. Why are classes with no healing spells even allowed to roll on trinkets with a healing proc?
Today in Grim Batol, a similar scene. Drahga drops his spirit cloak and the warlock wins the roll over me. I call him out on it and he says that it was better than "the crap cloak" he had - he was wearing the same cloak as me actually, another drop with spirit on it. Maybe he should try rolling on dps gear for a change? In a funny twist of fate, I then won the caster trinket off the last boss which works for both damage dealers and healers, and suddenly the lock offered to trade me the cloak for the trinket. So let me get this straight, you roll on a healer cloak - which you shouldn't have done in the first place - and then graciously offer to trade it to me in exchange for an item that you want as well? How about NO? Is this some sick new kind of loot whoring strategy, needing on everything you can in hopes of being able to use it as a bargaining chip against your competition later on? "Oh hey, I'll trade you that item I ninjaed from you earlier if you give me this drop now..." What will they come up with next?
Likewise I was tanking a normal BRC run today, when I saw a mage roll against the healer on a spirit ring, the healer won, and then the mage got all pouty because the healer had already won some other healing loot earlier as well. Yes, because if someone gets lucky with drops for their class/role, you obviously should try to take some of their loot away just to spite them. What.
I miss the times when people were able to be genuinely happy for someone else getting a great item for their class and spec instead of greedily trying to grab everything that the system will let them roll on just because it has a single useful stat for them on it.
What have other people's pugging experiences been like?
Posts
For Bhagpuss
1 hour ago
For what it's worth, DPS casters that have a healing spec have talents that convert spirit to hit. Shadow priests, elemental shamans, balance druids. This is so we don't need leather and mail with +hit on it that only one spec uses.
ReplyDeleteMages and warlocks don't, although I've heard some of them claim they can reforge the spirit to another stat.
So basically it's a mess and it's only people being decent that results in any sense of fairness. Unfortunately in normal dungeons people are less adept to give a crap about a manners because:
a) You're instantly replaceable. In a heroic, if you've downed a boss to get the loot that typically means you have a decent group. Why cheese off someone (especially the tank or healer) and cause them to leave and risk getting someone worse? In normals, that's not the case as the mechanics make everything pretty much zergable.
b) For BRC and ToT especially, the gear you get gets replaced by quest greens in Uldum anyway. So everyone thinks, "I'll just roll Need on everything, it shouldn't matter to anyone as we'll replace all of this crap in a level anyway."
Oh yeah, I know about dps priests, druids and shamans and wouldn't fault either of them for rolling on spirit gear. It's the mages and locks that bug me - I could understand if they didn't know about the class changes that took away the value that spirit used to have for them, but everyone that I've called out on it so far knew perfectly well that spirit didn't do anything for them anymore and just rolled anyway because they didn't care.
ReplyDeleteReforging is useful, but I think using it as an excuse to take gear that isn't made for you from others is bad. Nothing beats actually wearing items that have the stats you want on them from the start.
I guess this is another reason to like harder content: better chances of people treating you with some decency in the long run.
I've had ... largely positive experiences, to be honest. A couple of nasty moments here and there but, yeah, largely it's been good. SHOCK. Ahem. I think I got lucky in the timing, basically, although I've noticed a "just nuke through it lol" attitude creeping through. I've definitely noticed the disparity you mentioned between heroics and normals though - people are, as a general rule, more inclined to take them more seriously.
ReplyDeleteAnd don't get me started on spirit-whoring. I have lost so many upgrades to mages and warlocks it makes me want to scream. I don't mind the other classes who get some benefit from spirit but I fucking NEED spirit, and it's actually quite difficult to balance putting together a gear set with enough spirit on it, especially since most of the easily attainable epics, bar the belt from Hyjal, do not.
I have been meaning to write about this, actually, but you beat me to it.
Having lost out on a spirit trinket, a spirit cloak, spirit boots and a spirit staff ALL to mages and warlocks (are these in cahoots?!) I have actually started rolling on DPS gear simply so I can actually trade it back for the stuff I want. I'm not proud. Obviously I only do this if I've already lost out and it's as petty as fuck. But I got incredibly frustrated over this earlier.
The DPS are probably just rolling on the gear because it'll increase their iLevel and let them queue for heroics. Just by having it in their bag.
ReplyDeleteWorst need roll I saw was a prot pally rolling on int/spi. In fact, the worst players have been pally tanks. Most remarkable was the one that consistently would gather up all the AOE mobs and take them to a spot where the casting DPS had to get in range of that AOE. Druid tanks have all been awesome and only 1 warrior in 3 have been crap.
ReplyDeleteI play a moonkin and I always feel vaguely guilty when I roll on spirit gear. But in my defense, Blizzard WANTS Moonkins (and other classes in similar positions) to roll on spirit gear to get the hit they need. That being said, i wouldn't roll on a trinket that specifically mentions healing unless no one else wanted it. And I try not to be greedy about the loot I do win.
ReplyDeleteStill, I suffer guilt. Too bad other people don't.
Interestingly (on needing the healing trinket), priests can't roll need on the Corrupted Egg Shell from the last boss in Grim Batol, but it seems every other mana user can.
ReplyDeleteI have noticed a bit of a double standard on the loot thing though. As a warlock, I would never roll need on a spirit item anymore, because those are healer items. Fair, if I rolled need on that stuff I should be bitched at. But then when healers roll on non-spirit stuff, they seem to think that's pretty okay. Talking about actual armor gear here, not trinkets that work for both. So more or less what we the casters are being told is "Healers get to roll on twice as much stuff as you, get over it".
ReplyDeleteSolid post -- great to see other ppl's experience in LFD. I'm new to my guild (started right after Cata went live) and I play later at night than most of my guildies, so as a non-hybrid DPS I almost invariably have to sit through a nightly queue of 30-40 minutes. I like PUGs, too, but with that lengthy wait I do have a vested interest in landing with a good group, and without guildies I'm just taking a chance each time.
ReplyDeleteHappily I can report that most of my heroic runs have been fine, usually thanks to an awesome tank. I got H-SFK as my first heroic and I had never seen a tank do so many LoS pulls (Yes, I am a wrath baby, or at least a warmed-over BC toddler). With his knowledge and command ability ("melee stand here, ranged come with me, etc.") we didn't wipe once. A thing of beauty.
On the other hand, because I run late at night (for my server time -- the Oceanic people are fully awake), I've seen more than my fair share of tanks just abruptly announcing "going to bed, see ya" and then leaving. Requeueing in those circumstances is painfully boring, and nothing is worse than sticking it out only to find a new tank zone into Stonecore, take one look around, then hightail it out again. (Usually the group falls apart at this point.)
I've also run into tanks who won't mark or who tell me "CC whatever you want, idc" and then break my CC with AoE. DPS mostly seem to understand that this isn't Wrath anymore, and healers also know that things have changed. In our guild we have a shortage of tanks and people are being asked to offspec tank, so I try to be tolerant of bad tanking since I know many people are still learning. But not knowing CC etiquette after a month+ of Cata is fail, imho.
My other worst runs have come when I'm the odd man out in a 4-man guild run, which has happened to me 2-3 times now. Those groups basically don't seem to care about the random pugger (to be fair, it's sorta hard to blame them, lol) and if they've done the instance before, they usually don't seem to want to explain it. I'll say "never done this boss on H, what should I do?" and I'll get a canned response like "kill adds, stay out of fire" as the tank runs in to pull. Thanks guys, I never thought of that.
As to loot, I am happy to report I've had no loot contention issues. As melee DPS I don't seem to have too many people trying to ninja my shinies. Most PUGers are happy for me when I win something. With everyone gearing up still, it's often a parade of "grats" after each boss.
Let me make one last comment about 4-man guild runs + 1 PUGer, the type that I disparaged above: after my last run with a group like this, the [chaos orb] dropped, and I mentioned I was desperate for it and would offer to buy it. At that point everyone else passed on it except for one guy who'd already rolled. I won the roll anyway (hallelujah! engineering helm, you were mine to craft at last!) but the group said they'd have passed it to me anyway since I needed it. They said that since they usually did guild runs, all their crafters were doing fine on orbs anyway. So my advice: when you're the odd-man out, don't be shy about speaking up, as the group may be willing to help you as this group was for me. There's no way all these people would have passed on a chaos orb in a truly random group, at least not this early in the expansion.
If you're in BRC, and you're a level 80 mage who just leveled to 80 right before Cataclysm and is wearing an ilvl 174 ring, why wouldn't that mage roll on "spirit gear" that is going to be a HUGE upgrade in terms of intellect and stamina? Blame the system (letting classes roll on gear that isn't optimized for their class), not the mage.
ReplyDeleteI've had perfectly acceptable experiences in normals thus far. Worst was getting kicked with no warning/no explanation (My theory: to make room for a guildy)
ReplyDeleteMy wife keeps telling me that the tanks are starting to get big head though. She plays a DPS warrior and had one tank tell her she "should have rolled tank if she wanted to get loot."
We did have one group where the tank demanded we kick him from a run of Halls of Origination because we didn't know the dungeon and he couldn't be deigned to explain anything.
Learning boss mechanics and CC are the two major problems I faced for Heroic PuGs.
ReplyDeleteHere is a guide on CCing: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/820741-The-complete-crowd-control-Guide.
I rarely have an issue with a DPS not doing enough DPS. There were two rare cases where I had someone only outputting 4k DPS. 5-6k DPS seems average for most PuG DPSers. The somewhat geared ones do 8k+.
My first experiences pugging Heroics were great. Everyone was learning the dungeons, and the increased difficulty of fights together. Very rarely did I run into a player with a bad attitude or impatience at wiping. Sadly, in the last couple weeks that seems to be changing. Now that a lot of people have higher gear levels, and know the fights better, the impatience has grown exponentially. There seems to be one or two "experts" every run now that get great joy in bossing everyone around, and then raging when someone doesn't do something right. Also the willingness to CC and other efficient practices is lowering as well. Too bad....
ReplyDeleteAs a Pally tank, I never roll need on an item that has off stats for my spec. In my opinion if you want something for an off-spec, or that doesn't quite fit your role, you should wait to make sure no one else needs it first. DK's have been the worst for me... At least 3-4 times a DPS queue'd DK has out rolled me on something that has Dodge or Parry on it. Their explanation... My off spec is tanking. Great. Then queue as a tank if you want tanking gear. Either that or defer to the actual tank who is running you through the dungeon.
So frustrating...
Just a quick one.
ReplyDeleteIn a LFD group, unless you are from the same server, you cant trade items. So, even if you had wanted to swap drops with the warlock, you wouldn't have been able to
Ooh, link love from Tam brings a lot of comments.
ReplyDelete@musicchan: "Still, I suffer guilt. Too bad other people don't." That's a great quote and pretty much sums up my feelings during such runs. Sometimes I think I should just start ninjaing dps gear in return, but it wouldn't make me feel better, only guilty.
@Nyska: That actually dropped for me in heroic Grim Batol today and I was able to need on it.
@Backett: Well, personally I don't have that double standard because I don't need on gear that doesn't have spirit on it. I might not need to have that stat on absolutely every item, but Blizzard made enough drops to make it possible, so why would I want to take gear that was clearly designed with other classes in mind?
@Anonymous: Being the odd one out in what's otherwise a full guild run can be a blessing or a curse. On the one hand it could be as you say and they just ignore you, but on the other hand the group is likely to have some stability even if things go wrong and if it's a nice guild then you might actually be in for a treat (like in your orb example).
@Next Anonymous: Actually the main thing I blamed the mage in that example for is that after losing the roll he then had the guts to complain about it as well.
@Anonymous after Tuebor: I figured that tanks were probably going to be the most understanding of this particular dilemma. Though to me a lock rolling on spirit gear is actually even worse than needing for off-spec, since he doesn't have an off-spec that would use the stat. The equivalent for tanking gear would be a dps needing on dodge/parry loot just because it also happened to have strength on it.
@Last Anonymous: Are you sure about that? I'm pretty sure I traded some loot cross-server only a few weeks ago. I don't see why they would have disabled that.
Ooh, I've been terrified to PUG (probably on my DPS alt, which I'm not super pro at playing) heroics because I am one of those silly people who gets unduly upset when called names by strangers on the internet.
ReplyDeleteI don't think this post helped! :)
I'm finding it shocking and disheartening that I've been kicked from groups a few times. I am a resto druid and in Wrath my guild was in the top four on our server, and I was one of our top healers, or at least the most available tree. I've got experience in healing.
ReplyDeleteThough I took a long hiatus before Cata and I'm feeling like I'm no spring chicken anymore. I'm no longer raiding but I have good enough gear for heroics, and I understand my new mechanics. It COULD be me, but I'm not sure.
I know in one instance when the tank flat out refused CC despite my politest request threw a hissy fit and kicked me when we wiped on HoO trash. Totally not my fault I know now, that trash is certainly not meant to be zerged. Though I am AMAZED the DPS allowed this to happen too. Didn't any of THEM have sense or did they just assume the tank is always right?
Had a few wipes in Heroic Blackrock Caverns too before I was wordlessly ejected. I don't know if I just couldn't heal through the boss damage (The one with the flame pillar) or if there was avoidable damage being taken. I gave it everything I had though, and I can't take my eyes off the health meters long enough to check if everyone else is also giving it their all.
The boss in Heroic BRC with the flame pillar is a tank intensive fight. Basically a good tank can make that boss easy, but a bad tank can make it disastrous. Good tank keeps stacks low, doesn't allow adds to spawn, and saves defensive cd's for the end when boss is doing the most damage. If you wiped multiple times despite your best healing effort, then your tank was probably not doing these things.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous- that's not quite true. For rare or epic dungeon drops you CAN trade cross-server, just not for regular things- like water, gold, greens, etc.
ReplyDeleteI'm a bear tank. My wife is my main healer. I've been playing since vanilla my wife since wrath, with a switch to tanking in wrath. My biggest issue with pugging is that I don't need JP, just the rep to finish my grinds. So as such, I don't need the agro I get from "Go Go Go" dps. I don't have the ranged tools of a DK or Pally so a lot of my pulls are either CC or LoS.
ReplyDeleteIf you're hesitant of pugging there are a couple of things you can do at the start of an instance:
1. Say it's your first time in the instance (regardless of whether it is) and that you are fairly new to healing.
2. Let DPS die when they're continually tanking stuff they shouldn't be (I do this as a tank, my excuses will be either "somebody broke it" or "taunt was on cooldown" or "follow my target"). Healers have it better, they can just not heal somebody
3. If the tank is not behaving rationally (as described by the OP) then slow down the instance, take your time moving to fights/drinking, insist on marks, call out CC breaks etc.
Effectively, if the pulls are marked, CC is done and the group follows their roles then healing in heroics should not be stressful. If the tank is squishy (low mitigation/avoidance) then you won't have the mana to save DPS. Aside from some boss mechanics which make it hard to succeed with low DPS there are no enrage timers. Sacrificing one thoughtless (or careless) DPS to the volcano gods a few times can often make a big difference.
The following is my checklist for deaths:
1. Healer dead. Tanks fault.
2. Healer OOM, tank dead. DPS fault
3. DPS dead, DPS fault
4. Tank dead to missed interupt, DPS fault
5. Tank dead due to standing on volcanos, tank fault
6. Tank dead, healer full mana & bad CC, DPS fault
7. Tank dead, healer full mana & good CC/positioning then it's healer's fault
For info, I am geared enough so that in heroics that I'm now getting rage starved. Getting kicked from heroics when you're doing the right things may be disheartening, but at least you're not playing with idiots then.
My main's a feral but I also have a priest and a lock, and maybe it's because of the priest and how much she needs the spirit on the healy gear but I would never ever roll against a healer on spirit items on my lock. In fact, I'm doing everything I can to avoid spirit on her gear - she doesn't need mana regen (hello) and only 40% of spirit can be reforged to hit or some other useful stat.
ReplyDeleteFrom recount link the "damage taken" meter. If the DPS are above the tank then let them know. Also link the interupts meter, it it's empty then let them know.
ReplyDeleteHealing is only a problem when DPS don't do their jobs.
@Beckett: I think the theory is supposed to be that +spirit gear is for healers, +hit gear is for dps, and gear with neither stat on it is fair game to both. That said, I've run into both healers and dps who seem to think that haste/crit or crit/mastery or whatever kind of non-spirit/hit item they want is only for their role. I've had casters gquit because a healer won a haste/crit cloak, for example.
ReplyDeleteI guess think of it as a Venn diagram, with a circle for pure healing gear, and a circle for pure dps gear, and the overlap being gear that has neither spirit nor hit on it.
Nice post.
ReplyDeleteI play a Resto Shaman and as that mostly have had no trouble rolling for gear that I needed. Unlessa another shaman was in the group. Otherwise gearing is going pretty well.
Mana has been a serious issue as of late. Just got to 85 and ran my first Grim Batol run and it was kind of a nightmare with the tank being a bit faster than my mana regen or my reaction in general. And he didn't really let me finish my drink at times. A few times a DPS died but other than that we got through it kidna ok. Mana is a bit too hard to manage at the moment, in my opinion. I hate being the only one who sits down after every fight to get some mana. I know it's supposed to be harder but not next to impossible. One interrupted cast can mean the difference between a succesful run and a wipe and that I think is a bit too sensitive. I know the tanks have large health pools but when damage comes in as spiky as it did in some Wrath instances it's no fun. I'm constantly casting Healing Wave because it's cheap enough to keep it on constant cast. If I have to fit in a few Greater Healing Wave I will see my mana pool drop too rapidly.
Once I got to the poing where I did ragequit as a healer. Just finished a trash group, told the tank I needed mana (was at 4k/57k), tank ignored and charged (yes it was a warrior) and I ha just sat down to drink so I quit. I'm not paying for repair bills if I have called a break.
Anyway it's been a fun and challenging expasion but once DPS re-learn CC it will be golden.
Yes, I have problems accepting puggers needing on the wrong gear as well. Mages/locks on spirit gear is a common one. Another is DKs on agility loot. I was so glad the time a one-hand axe dropped and my guildie enhance shaman won the roll over a DK dps. I really don't get why people who are obviously not suited for the gear can roll need on them.
ReplyDelete@L +spirit gear is for all hybrid dps/healers. Hybrid healer dps classes (ie moonkins, elemental shamans and shadow priests) get 1 to 1 spirit to hit conversion. It's designed so they don't have to create a separate set of healer and dps caster mail and leather gear. It's also given to shadow priests, despite them having access also to mage/lock gear, because otherwise, spirit cloth will be niche cloth for priest healer only. (Atm, only holy paladins have niche gear like this).
ReplyDeleteYou know, some mages have talents that allow a certain percentage of passive mana regen to continue while casting, and if they run out of mana they aren't doing dps, so spirit is still a dps stat insofar as it allows them to continue dpsing.
ReplyDeleteNormal dungeons, interestingly, have been more challenging because most tanks face pull every group. I'll speak up and suggest CC because we have it and can use it and get a reply like "how about we just keep going." These tend to be paladin tanks but I would say I get paladin tanks 99% of the time.
ReplyDeleteI was pleasantly surprised by most of my pugs so far. I first started pugging because I was angry and didn't want to inflict myself on guildies and/or didn't want to run with certain guildies who get on my nerves. The pugs ended up being more fun than the guild groups, for the most part. Unlike someone up there ^, 99% of my "guild pugs" (4 people from a guild + me) have been very pleasant - including a Grim Batol run with only one wipe! (I loathe and fear that place.)
ReplyDeleteWe're 1 month into Cataclysm and people have probably started to get used to the new style. Normals are still hit and miss because some tanks think they can just run in and facepull, but I haven't seen one "gogogo"er in heroics yet. (Luckily for me, my druid main isn't doing normals anymore, and my shammy alt can just Hex/Bind the mobs eating her face.)
Thanks for the read.
ReplyDeleteI play a druid, currently restro. Frankly, if I don't like the group I give them a warning. Hopefully things change else I leave. It takes almost no time for me to find another instance, while I have no idea how long they wait on a replacement healer (who they are likely going to piss off too).
I am going to start gearing up my tanking gear and I suspect it will even be easier to replace crappy players.
@Brian: Less than 5 minutes. Same for tanks. The group stays at the top of the queue and, at least for heroics, I've never had to wait long to get a replacement anything.
ReplyDelete(Which, as an aside, is why I can't understand tanks who drop at the beginning of a dungeon. They get a 30 minutes debuff, we get a new tank in 5...)
@Liore: But I said that the puggers I've met in heroics have been good! It's the normals you have to worry about really.
ReplyDelete@Anonymous after Lara: Your "whose fault is it anyway" checklist is interesting, but I've found that it tends to be more complex than that these days. For example I've seen a lot of dps die to what I consider the tank's fault, because he charges in, insisting to tank everything at once and taking so much damage that he can barely be kept up even with non-stop heal spammage, and the poor dps then die from some unavoidable AoE because I literally can't spare even a second to put a HoT on them or something.
@Yet another Anonymous: No, that's the thing, mages do not have any talents that benefit from spirit anymore, check the talent trees. Even abilities that used to scale with spirit, such as mage armor have had the spirit component removed. It really does nothing at all for them.
@Next Anonymous: I can only agree. I go through more drinks in normals than in heroics because the tanks insist on just tanking everything even if they can't really take it.